The following interview is a conversation we had with Swapnil Shinde, CEO and Co-Founder of Zeni, on our podcast Category Visionaries. You can view the full episode here: $47+ Million Raised to Build the Finance Operations Category.
Swapnil Shinde
My pleasure being here, Brett. Thank you for inviting me.
Brett
No problem. How’d I do on pronouncing your name? I was just joking with you there in the pre interview. Did I pronounce that? Okay?
Swapnil Shinde
That was perfect.
Brett
All right, awesome. Good way to start the interview. So let’s kick things off with just a quick summary of who you are and a bit more about your background.
Swapnil Shinde
Sure. So to give you some background, I did my bachelor’s in computer science from India in Pune, then came to us to do my master’s in computer science from USC. Worked for northern antivirus for three years, then for Yahoo for several years before I started my first company, Dingana, which was like Spotify for indian music. In fact, the company was started by me and my identical twin brother Snihal. So we grew it to almost 10 million unique listeners listening to it from 100 countries around the world. It was acquired by RDO, which was started by the Skype co-founders several years later, then started our second company, Mezzi, which was like an AI powered travel assistant for business travelers. That got acquired by American Express. And post that, we started Zeni, which is like an AI powered finance operations platform for startup.
Swapnil Shinde
And I’ve been doing it for the last four years now.
Brett
That’s awesome that you work so closely with your identical brother. I was looking at the about us page and I was thinking, it’s the same guy, the CEO. It’s a different haircut. He’s trying to make his team bigger than it is, but makes sense now. What’s that been like working for so many years with your brother? And I know you mentioned here in the pre interview you guys live close together, you went to Yahoo together, you graduated school together with the same degree. So what’s that been like working so closely with your brother? And how do you balance that between family and business, sometimes kind of lowering those can be difficult for people. So how have you managed it?
Swapnil Shinde
Yeah, I think it has been a very unique experience growing up together because we have the same skill sets, pretty much the same mindset, the same liking for things. And when were growing up, our teachers always used to get confused. So the principal of the school actually made a rule that both of us cannot be in the same class because it was driving people crazy. So were always separated and put in different classes. Then we did our entire schooling undergrad together. Post that both of us came to USC to do our masters, we graduated with the same GPA and post that both of us worked at Symantec Norton antivirus and then both of us went to Yahoo. So it has been a long journey and we know each other’s strengths and weaknesses and I think we complement each other really well.
Swapnil Shinde
Today at Zeni he’s focused on all product and technology, while I’m focused on marketing, sales, operations and all other aspects of the business. So I think we have a very good understanding now more than ever before in how to divide and rule and run faster. So it’s like having another version of you who is equally good and you can basically play your battles on two different fields in parallel and hopefully win both of them.
Brett
I’m very jealous. As a solo Founder, I’ve often thought, man, if I could just have another version of me, that would be so great. But you have it.
Swapnil Shinde
Yeah, especially if it’s smarter and better looking like me. So yeah, I can understand.
Brett
Now a few questions I like to ask and the goal here is really just to better understand what makes you tick as a Founder. First one, what Founder do you admire the most and what do you admire about them?
Swapnil Shinde
I think a couple of them come to mind. Recently I’ve developed a lot of admiration for Satya Nadila. He isn’t a Founder of Microsoft, but I think the way he has turned around the ship is mind blowing because in my friend circle and network of entrepreneurs, I see that Microsoft has looked at a cooler company than Google and Meta. So the way he has turned the company around and acquired amazing other companies to be part of them is commendable. It’s just amazing. The second one that I admire is Nawal, who started Angellist. And I think Angelist is becoming a unique beast because it’s literally becoming a platform on which all the vcs and startups can run. So they started with an SPV, but now all the vc funds are being set up on angel list. All the startups are being funded from angel list.
Swapnil Shinde
They also have a great recruiting product. So overall, I think it’s turning into a massive, powerful platform for vcs and startups.
Brett
Yeah, totally agree. And I enjoy following him as well. And on the Microsoft note, it’s just fascinating to watch. I think in my mind ten years ago, Microsoft, I think even in the media, right, they would report about this. Not a lot of people wanted to work at Microsoft. Everyone wanted to work at Facebook or at Google. But all of a sudden that changed very quickly. And I think some of his comments, like what did he say the other day? Or a few months ago? He wanted to make Google dance. I thought that was just very cool. They’re taking this position against Google and they have a strong chance, which I didn’t really foresee that coming. If you would have asked me ten years ago is Microsoft being ever going to be a challenger to Google search, I would have said you were crazy.
Brett
But now those conversations are happening and they seem like they’re very real conversations.
Swapnil Shinde
Absolutely. And their investment in OpenAI was also an extremely brilliant book.
Brett
Totally. It’s been fascinating to watch. Now, what about books and the way we like to frame this? And this comes from an author named Brian Holliday. He calls them quickbooks. So a quickbook is a book that rocks you to your core. It really influences how you think about the world and how you approach life. Do any quickbooks come to mind for you?
Swapnil Shinde
I think one of my recent favorite ones is think like a monk by Jay Shetty. It’s an amazing book. I would highly recommend you read it if possible. So Jay Shetty talks about the days when he turned into a monk and why he turned into a monk when he had everything going for him. He was based out of London, and from there he moved to India. He moved to an ashram, became a monk for the next several years, and then came back and is now teaching those learnings to pretty much the entire world through his books, through his podcast, through his Instagram, et cetera. But I think what’s really unique in that book is the way he merges the world of monks into the world where we stand today. And his viewpoints are extremely unique.
Swapnil Shinde
The way he teaches you to focus on your mind, how to define your own values, how to live your life fully in an authentic way is just mind blowing.
Brett
I’ve listened to a lot of his podcasts, but the book is new to me, so I’ll definitely have to check that out. I’m a big fan of the podcast. I feel like it really helps with mindset and it’s really getting your head straight. So huge fan of the show.
Swapnil Shinde
Absolutely.
Brett
Let’s switch gears here and let’s talk a little bit more about the company and everything that you’re doing there. So to start off, can you just talk to us about the problem? What problem are you solving and who are you solving it for?
Swapnil Shinde
So the problem that we are solving is for technology startups. And we have had a very painful and long relationship with this problem because Zenny is our third startup. So we started two startups before this, as I mentioned. And in both those startups, we realized that managing finances as you grow your company and making sure your bookkeeping and accounting is done right, taxes are filed right, and RND tax credits is taken care of, CFO services is delivered right is extremely painful because typically what startups do is like they hire a part time bookkeeper to manage their books. Then they have an admin who takes care of their bill payments and expense management. At some point they need a temp CFO, so they go hire a temp CFO. Then they need someone to manage their taxes.
Swapnil Shinde
So they have several experts doing several different things, several different tools that they’re using to manage their finances, and it all becomes extremely fragmented. It becomes slow. Bookkeeping doesn’t even start until the month ends. And after that, your bookkeepers will take probably two to three weeks to close your books. So the problem that we faced was that this was not only fragmented and complex, but as founders, we didn’t have insights into our burn rate Runway, how much money we are spending there on a daily basis. We used to come to know about it like three weeks after the previous month has passed. So I literally remember a scenario where at Mezzi, I asked my finance team that, hey, why did our burn rate increase by 30%?
Swapnil Shinde
And I was already sitting at the end of the next month and I was asking about the previous month because that is when the books were closed. And then after two or three days of back and forth, I realized that the burn rate has increased because the marketing spend had increased and that had increased because we spend more on Facebook ads because those ads are pretty much automated. So if I had these insights on a daily basis, I could have controlled that birth. Now we live in a world where we have to be reactive to our finances. How do we turn that into a proactive approach? So that’s how Zeni was born. We wanted to build a platform that can automate your bookkeeping and accounting to a level where we almost do a virtual close on your book every single day.
Swapnil Shinde
So Zeni today is the only platform that can guarantee you daily bookkeeping and offers you real time insights into your finances through the Zeni dashboard. So essentially what we have done is we have used generative AI to build a finance operation platform that automates your bookkeeping, accounting, your yearly taxes, R D tax credit, CFO services, and we pretty much give you a dedicated finance team that runs your finance department for you.
Brett
And are there people behind the scenes that are also doing a lot of this work, or is it really AI that’s powering all of this?
Swapnil Shinde
No, that’s the beauty of it. AI cannot power 100% of it. So we have a dedicated team of finance experts who collaborate with AI to stitch an experience that is ten x faster than what you might have today. So we work on your books faster. The books are more accurate because those finance experts are now augmented by AI. And as a result of that, we can close your month at lightning fast speed, and you always have real time insights into your finances.
Brett
That’s super fascinating, and I can see that’s such a massive problem solved for startups. This show is brought to you by Front Lines Media, a podcast production studio that helps B2B founders launch, manage and grow their own podcast. Now, if you’re a Founder, you may be thinking, I don’t have time to host a podcast. I’ve got a company to build. Well, that’s exactly what we built our service to do. You show up and host, and we handle literally everything else. To set up a call to discuss launching your own podcast, visit frontlines.io podcast. Now back today’s episode. How many startups are you working with today?
Swapnil Shinde
So we are working with close to 400 startups now. We are managing more than $1 billion in finances every single month. So the scale is already pretty massive. Super excited about where we stand today. We have close to 260 employees, five offices, two in us, three india, and growing really well even in this market. So super blessed and excited about, and.
Brett
I’m sure every startup right now is taking a closer look at their finances. So there must a big pull right now from the market to try to solve this problem and support these founders who are struggling. Because I think anyone who has a startup right now is feeling some pressure, right. And is probably a little bit stressed. So having this type of visibility is extremely valuable, I can imagine.
Swapnil Shinde
Yeah, I think you’re spot on, because now everyone’s focus is to build a stronger company with a stronger unit economic, figure out how to reduce their burn and extend their Runway. And the best way you can do that is have a very tight grip on your finances. And that is exactly what Zeni unlocks. And unlocks it at a price point that is probably lower than what you’re paying today. Because if you have anyone managing your finances today, there is a very high chance that you have uploaded it to a part time accountant or a finance firm, both of whom are charging you on an hourly basis. So when someone works on an hourly basis, they actually create more work for themselves. They will add more manual stuff so that they can charge you for more hours. But Jenny does the opposite.
Swapnil Shinde
We are incentivized to automate stuff for you because we are a SaaS platform. So it completely changes the ballgame. Plus we are ten x faster because we do daily bookkeeping versus someone else will focus on working on your book after the month ends.
Brett
And if we look at the price point, I see there’s two plans. So one’s 550 a month, one’s 800 a month. How do you even compare that to what a normal, if you’re not using a tool like this, you’re just using a traditional service based bookkeeping service or fractional service. What are you typically paying? What is that cost savings.
Swapnil Shinde
So typically, a lot of finance firms will actually start at $2000 to $3,000 a month because they will sit and do everything for you manually. You have a bill to process, they will charge you hourly for that. You have to recognize your revenue, they will charge you hourly for that. If you ask them that, hey, what is my burn rate? They will calculate it, send it back to you, charge you hourly for that with Zeni, all the insights that you need to talk to a finance person and get it from them, and they have to sit and work on Excel. That entire thing is automated through our dashboard, so you don’t even need to talk to them.
Swapnil Shinde
If you go to our dashboard, you will feel as if a finance expert is speaking to you about all the insights, like why did your burn increase? Why did your opex increase? Which vendor are you spending most money on, how did you spend on that vendor in the last twelve months? So all those things, all those insights come to you out of the box with the click of a button and are available to you every single day. So that’s a huge change and which really translates into saving a lot of money for the startup, but importantly, giving them those insights and cooking those insights on a daily basis.
Brett
Obviously there’s a lot of noise out there today. I know of a few tools who aren’t doing exactly what you’re doing, but they’re trying to tackle the problem in a different way. What are you doing to rise above all of that noise? And from a marketing perspective, what’s working to connect with these startups and to acquire customers at the rate you are?
Swapnil Shinde
I think the most important thing is focus on your moat. Like what is it that uniquely differentiates you from the market? Right? And just focus on that. Keep your heads down, focus on executing to your plan and build a product that really creates that aha moment for your customers. I think as founders we shouldn’t be focused on what a competitor is doing. We should be focused on the competitors customers. How do you delight them? So as I mentioned before, I think what we have ended up creating is a very unique platform. Because if you want daily bookkeeping and those real time insights, we are probably the only one who can guarantee you that you go anywhere else. There are thousands of finance firms in the US. You work with anyone, all of them will do the same thing for you.
Swapnil Shinde
Excel sheets are flying back and forth over email. No insights are real time. Your books are not even closed till two weeks into the next month. So the experience is very different. And the unfortunate thing is for decades and decades the finance folks have been working on closing your books this way. So they are not going to change. The only way to change this. If you think that you are crazy to build something that completely changes the way finance operations is done, and once customers realize it, they are like, wow, I want to try this. So 70% of our customers are actually moving to us from using finance firms.
Brett
Wow, do the finance firms hate you then who hates you in the industry? I feel like someone must not be happy about this because it is very disruptive to the traditional model. Right?
Swapnil Shinde
It is, I would say, not to focus on the hate, but focus on the love that we are getting from the customers. And I think there is a lot of interest from a lot of folks, whether it’s vcs customers, future customers, big enterprises, et cetera. So I think more excited about that. But yes, the side effect of our success is going to be that one day we will completely eradicate bookkeeping as a skill set from the market.
Brett
Wow, that’s very fascinating. When it comes to your market category, how do you think about it? Is it finance operations? Is that the category that you want to be part of and you want to identify when someone says in a platform, is it a finance operations platform? Or when is that market category?
Swapnil Shinde
Yeah, that’s the category that we are focused on and almost like creating it because we are actually disrupting an extremely old business, which was extremely human intensive. It’s not sexy at all. So we are coming in and disrupting that whole business of managing your finance department, managing your accounting and bookkeeping. And it was very manual. So we are actually replacing that entire layer with an AI powered platform, but with humans overseeing that platform. So we are taking the humans, making them collaborate with machines, and then creating that whole experience from the ground up.
Brett
That makes a lot of sense. Now, let’s talk a little bit about funding. So, as I mentioned there in the intro, over $47 million has been raised so far. What have you learned about fundraising throughout this journey?
Swapnil Shinde
Fundraising becomes easier with every startup. So that’s a good thing because this was our third startup. I think a lot of our investors had seen our journey before. Almost all investors in the first round of Zeni were existing investors in my last startup, so they knew exactly what they were dealing with. They know where we are good, they know where we are bad. So they can help us on the side where we need help and turbocharge us on the side where we are good. And even our second round series was led by Elevation Capital, which is a big vc in Utah. And they already had existing chemistry with our series vcs. So it’s always great to have a board where all of them share an amazing chemistry.
Swapnil Shinde
There is a high level of trust, high level of excitement for the problem that we are solving. So every board meeting is just an amazing meeting that we have. We learn from each other, we encourage each other. If something is going wrong, all of us jump in and help solve that problem. So it’s amazing to have that chemistry with all the vcs.
Brett
Now, let’s imagine that you were starting the company again today from scratch. What would be the number one piece of advice you’d give to yourself?
Swapnil Shinde
A couple of them, actually. I think it’s very important to build your team top down and bottoms up at the same time. And what I mean by that is typically what first time founders do, is that they start wearing a lot of hats, they start doing a lot of things themselves, and they start building the team bottoms up. What I have learned after building three companies is that in parallel, if you start building the team top down, you can actually execute five x faster. And what I mean by that is, let’s say you are a Founder, you have a specific skill set, you are great at product, you are great at technology, but you are not great at sales.
Swapnil Shinde
So what you should do is try to get in the sales leader once you understand the basic fundamentals of selling your product yourself, and get a leader who can actually take that blueprint and probably run five x faster than you can, and then repeat that for all the roles around you and try your best to remove that hat and have someone else wear it. And that is how you can actually execute faster. Because in the world of startups, ideas, everyone has amazing ideas. So a great idea is not the winning formula. A great idea with funding is not the winning formula. The winning formula is to really execute in a way that you can outpace others. And that is where the magic lies.
Brett
Final question for you here. Let’s zoom out three to five years into the future. What’s that big picture vision that you’re building?
Swapnil Shinde
So the big picture vision is really to build that one all in one finance operation platform that uses Gen AI to run your entire finance department for you, but in a way that is not just done by technology, but is augmented with people. So today we have people are assisting the platform to do your accounting and bookkeeping, but the future is going to be where the platform will start assisting the other human experts that we have to do accounting and bookkeeping. And that’s how we are scaling this. And I think it can be huge because the problem that we are solving is global, and the platform that we are building is a country less and currencyless platform. So hopefully we can take it global in the next five years as well.
Brett
Amazing. I love the vision and I love the problem that you’re solving. I know of a lot of startup founders who are struggling with these types of things, so I can definitely see the pain point there and can appreciate you taking the initiative to solve it. We are up on time, so we’ll have to wrap here. Before we do, if any founders listening in want to just follow along with your journey as you build or just want to get in touch to potentially work with you, where should they go?
Swapnil Shinde
They should go to zeni.ai and schedule a demo with us.
Brett
Amazing. Thank you so much for taking the time to join the podcast, talk about what you’re building, and share some of the lessons that you’ve learned along the way. I’ve really enjoyed our conversation and appreciate you taking the time.
Swapnil Shinde
Thanks, Brett. Thanks for inviting me. It was a great conversation and all the best.
Brett
Thank you. Keep in touch. This episode of Category Visionaries is brought to you by Front Lines Media. Silicon Valley’s leading podcast production studio. If you’re a B2B Founder looking for help launching and growing your own podcast, visit frontlines.io podcast. And for the latest episode, search for Category Visionaries on your podcast platform of choice. Thanks for listening, and we’ll catch you on the next episode.
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