The following interview is a conversation we had with Tom Tovar, CEO and Co-Founder of AppDome, on our podcast Category Visionaries. You can view the full episode here: Over $26 Million Raised to Build the Future of Mobile App Security.
Tom Tovar
Hey, thanks. Thanks for having me, Brett. Really excited to be here.
Brett
No problem.
Tom Tovar
So, to kick things off, could we.
Brett
Just a quick summary of who you are and a bit more about your background.
Tom Tovar
Yeah, so, as you said, my name is Tom. I’m the co-creator of a product called AppDome. We automate the defense of cyber protections inside mobile applications for world’s leading mobile apps. We’re on a mission to protect every mobile app in the world. I actually started my career, don’t get freaked out or anything, but I started my career off as a lawyer and then fell in love with technology. Taught myself to code, taught myself to hack, and found my way here over at AppDome. So it’s been pretty interesting journey, for sure.
Brett
Yeah. I was looking at your LinkedIn prior to the interview, and I saw that you were a lawyer from 94, 2000 there in Silicon Valley. So that must have been a pretty fascinating time to be in law. Can you tell us from your perspective what was going on in Silicon Valley.
Tom Tovar
In that time period? It was definitely, they call it the boom years for sure. I mean, it was such an explosion of entrepreneurial energy and excitement and so much kind of being innovated in terms of business models and not just that, but corporate structures and funding structures and all that. And so I kind of really loved it. I was right in the center of it. I got to meet some really amazing people, got to understand the venture community, what it means to take a company public hundreds of times over and just immerse myself in all kinds of technologies, everything from consumer facing tech to networking tech. And you really can’t say enough about being in such a high paced, high fast moving environment like that. You just learn so much.
Tom Tovar
You just kind of have to, I don’t know, surrender yourself to the moment and just kind of go with it and grab as much experience as you can. It was an amazing time for me. It really was.
Brett
Was that hard to leave that legal career behind, to go into tech and start your own companies?
Tom Tovar
It’s a great question. I don’t know. My joke was always that I wasn’t really a great lawyer. Ha. I think when all of us, when we get to a certain point that we’ve done something enough and we feel like we’ve mastered it enough, we can never say that we truly master anything, because it’s all a journey, and there’s so much to learn in life. But for me, I got to a point where I did the stats on myself. Like, I’d done so many ipos, so many venture financings, represented so many companies, et cetera, that I wanted something new. And this opportunity came along to join a company called Netscreen, and it was a firewall company, and I didn’t know anything about firewalls or anything about security, and I just really wanted to learn that side of house.
Tom Tovar
And so I jumped and I went there, and I was one of the early employees at that company and ended up being one of the top three executives at the company. And it grew very fast. We ultimately sold it for, like, $5 billion to juniper networks or something. So it was like a win in every way possible. So I always love the law. I still love the law. I don’t necessarily miss the practice of law. But you still find ways to use all of us do. We find ways to learn the things that we pick up along the way, if we do it right, in what we do every day. So I still use it from time to time, for sure.
Brett
Now, a few other questions we like to ask, and the goal here is to just really better understand what makes you tick as a Founder. First one is, what Founder and CEO do you admire the most, and what do you admire about them?
Tom Tovar
Oh, man, I admire every single Founder out there. I mean, I meet them here at AppDome. We not only protect big companies mobile apps, but young companies mobile apps as well. People who are just launching their first application in fintech or insurance tech or health tech or even femtech or whatever. And I always tell them, like, man, it’s so cool to meet you and celebrate your journey. And I tell them all, like, I honor you for what you’re doing. And to be a Founder of a company, you’ve got to really root yourself in optimism and the belief in what you’re doing. And you’ve got to maximize every single moment of every single day to be successful and that’s a hard thing to do. It’s a challenge with yourself. It’s a challenge with your own biases. It’s challenge with your own energy, everything.
Tom Tovar
And so I just admire anybody who’s willing to pick up that flag and claim Founder and go out there and try to make it on their own and build a team and a whole industry and an economy around the things that they’re doing. I just think it is probably the best gig in the world, honestly. It really is. To anyone that wants to pick up the flag. I don’t know. I celebrate you, honor you, thank you, everything. It’s just such a rewarding journey for anybody.
Brett
Amazing. I love it. And the founders listening in probably love to hear that as well. Now, what about books? And we like to frame this around this idea of a quickbook. So this comes from an author named Brian Holliday, and he defined a quickbook as the book that rocks you to your core and really influences how you approach life and how you think about the world. Do any quickbooks come to mind for you?
Tom Tovar
Yeah. I love mathematics. I love economics. I love things that give structure to thoughts and decision making. I mean, I myself started trying to apply mathematical concepts to startups and started writing a book called the Economics of Modern Leadership, in which I created math models to describe everything from morale to what each function in an organization is meant to be doing. It’s a journey, and I’m still in the process of doing it. But for me, books like Dan Arielli’s predictable irrationality or Barry Schwartz’s paradox of choice were the kinds of things that really kind of opened my eyes to providing economic models for how we make decisions and what are the optimizing mechanisms that we can use to live our lives or build companies. So I really like books that try to apply mathematical or kind of reasoning constructs to everyday problems.
Tom Tovar
These are the things that tend to kind of get me going and get me thinking, because if you’re designing a product, you have to contend with these things. You have to contend with how people make choices. Simple books like why people, the book, why people buy. I mean, understanding the nature of decision making, of the human condition, of what drives behavior and so forth, that’s so critical to being not just a product creator or a Founder, but being an executive and leader, then you’re always going to get it wrong, or maybe you’re always going to get it imperfectly right, let’s say. But these kinds of notions kind of keep it all grounded and keep you centered and free from having to feel too bad when you do get it imperfectly. Right? If that makes sense, makes complete sense.
Brett
Now to switch gears, let’s dive a bit deeper into the company so we can think about this like the elevator pitch. But what’s that high level pitch? And what’s that high level problem that you’re solving?
Tom Tovar
Yeah, so the high level problem that we’re solving is pretty straightforward. I mean, if we just sort of ponder how we live our lives today, the vast majority of us spend 98% of our lives inside of our mobile experience, inside of one of somewhere between 18 to 24 apps that we use to manage, live our lives, to share and invest and save and purchase and buy and explore and experience, et cetera. The world has definitely gone mobile overnight. When you talked about my time as a lawyer, that world was known as digital, and we talked about the difference between digital natives and digital immigrants. Well, now we talk about the world is mobile, right? Mobile natives and mobile immigrants. And some of us were both digital and mobile immigrants. So we’ve changed our association twice, but the world has definitely gone mobile.
Tom Tovar
And as a result, attackers and fraudsters have likewise gone mobile. And so the threats that we face today inside of a mobile experience have really outstretched the consumer’s ability to protect themselves. So who’s going to do that work? Who’s going to solve that problem? And that responsibility has been shifted to the publisher and the developer of the mobile app. But they don’t have resources, they don’t have the skills to match what the hackers and attackers are doing. So enter AppDome. We solved the mobile app defense challenge by providing an automation platform to developers to essentially get any class of protection they want with a click of a button. So they use our platform to select the security or anti fraud, anti cheat, anti malware, anti bot features, whatever that they want.
Tom Tovar
And when they issue an API command or click a button, a machine builds everything for them. So if you’re a developer and a Founder and you’ve got a mobile application and you don’t have the resources or skills or cyber expertise to build all that yourself, or you just want to get done in 33 seconds or less, you come to AppDome and you use our product to achieve that outcome. And so I think we’re solving lots of things. We’re solving time to market, we’re solving ease of resources, improved delivery, consistency, and we’re doing it in a dev way. We’re doing it with the developer in mind, who is really the one charged with delivering these enhanced protections.
Brett
You take us back to 2016. What was it about this problem that made you say, yes, that’s it. Let’s build a company around this.
Tom Tovar
Building apps. Myself, I was building apps, and I wanted to try to protect my code. And so I started using kind of the free security services that were out there, and a lot of them come with sdks or code samples or whatnot. It was just really difficult for me to utilize those mean along the way, I was griping about this with a friend of mine, a venture capitalist at Menlo Ventures named Binky Ganesen. And Binky said, hey, I’ve got a company you might want to talk to. So I met the Founder, CTO. His name’s Abhi Huda. And I started telling him about my idea, and he was like, well, we don’t do that today here, but we could. And I was like, what? And so we started talking, and we spent, like, eight and a half hours together.
Tom Tovar
And I said, my pitch back then, Brett, you’ll laugh at me, was, I want to make a vending machine. I want to make a vending machine for mobile app defense. And he was like, what? And I was, yeah. Like, I want to be able to get any protection. Know, drop a quarter in, push a button, and it’ll pop out the like. That was my basic sketch of what I wanted to build. People thought were a little crazy, but Avi and I together made it work. And we’re approaching a billion mobile end users protected. And I’m just so ridiculously humbled that this company and the people here and took this idea of a vending machine for mobile app defense, and we transformed it into a product that’s going to protect almost a billion people on the planet.
Tom Tovar
And it’s just like, wow, that’s just so crazy. But we saw the need, we saw the problem, but most importantly, we saw the way to architect this to make it work. And that’s really what differentiates. So if you’re going to be a Founder out there, my advice is, yeah, find a big problem for sure that needs to be solved with trends that aren’t going to end and all the things venture capitalists tell you to look for, but have something unique about your architecture, something unique about your technology that will give you staying power. And that’s what we latched on to, and that’s what we transformed into a product.
Brett
The vending machine approach makes more sense now. I was playing around earlier on your pricing page, and I saw that you have the drop down, you select the features that you want, and then it generates the pricing from there. So it sounds like you’ve still continued with that then, is that right?
Tom Tovar
Yeah. Well, the pricing base came much later. The product itself does exactly that. So you basically provide the system with a target application. Again, you configure the defenses that you need, and it’s everything from encryption to jailbreak and root to obfuscation, to overlay attacks and auto clickers and memory injection and all kinds of esoteric, very sophisticated attack vectors. You basically choose the things that you want and if you’re using the GUI, you click a button. Or if you use the API connected to your CI CD platform, you just use git or Jenkins or whatever. And those things issue the command, the build command, and we basically have a machine learning engine that codes everything and gives you back basically the secured version of your application. And right now it’s a fully automated system.
Tom Tovar
And basically developers plug their CI CD into it and they run jobs continuously all day long, and we monitor it, make sure it’s up and running, and add new things to it daily, basically. So it’s really cool if you’re in cyber. Like, I was just presenting it to a group of pen testers today and they were telling me that it’s slick and they thought it was really awesome. And I was like all excited that they called my product slick. And I was like, that’s so amazing. It’s like someone who tells you have a cute dog, you’re like, yeah, my dog is cute. You get really kind of personally charged up by it. Like, yeah, my product is slick. I was pretty happy about it.
Brett
That’s awesome. Now, who are the typical customers or what’s the customer base look like? Because if you’re reaching a million users that are protected, I’m guessing it’s not just like a small independent developer with an app. It must be enterprise as well, is that right?
Tom Tovar
Yeah, it’s mostly enterprise, mostly large publishers or developers, studios, banks, retail, things like that. So basically our typical user is a development group within an enterprise or venture funded startup who’s trying to deliver an application securely, consistently inside their DevOps pipeline. So these companies will typically have pen tests or what’s called code scans or whatnot and be facing problems. They can’t remediate the things that the scanning solutions are finding. They don’t have the skills, they’re not measuring up to whatever industry or regulatory or internal standard they have, and they’re just struggling with it, struggling to get it to work, struggling to make it stable, struggling to deliver it on time and they’re just looking for a better way, and they’re looking for an easier way, a more automated way to kind of get that done.
Tom Tovar
We don’t yet have an individual developer option, so we don’t have that. I hope to by next year. This year, it’s really, in all prior years, it’s been focused squarely on kind of the enterprise developer who’s building applications for either mass market consumers or the enterprise workforce. You and me, as employees or gig worker kind of use cases. So those are our customers.
Brett
This show is brought to you by Front Lines Media, a podcast production studio that helps B2B founders launch, manage and grow their own podcast. Now, if you’re a Founder, you may be thinking, I don’t have time to host a podcast. I’ve got a company to build. Well, that’s exactly what we built our service to do. You show up and host and we handle literally everything else. To set up a call to discuss launching your own podcast, visit frontlines.io podcast. Now back today’s episode. Take us back to the first couple of paying enterprise customers. That’s obviously something that all founders struggle with getting across the line in the early days. What was that journey like for you, and what did you learn along that journey?
Tom Tovar
Yeah, use your network. I mean, that’s my advice. Use your network, use your friends, use your board, use your investors. Stand on a street corner if you have to. I mean, you’re a Founder, so grind it out. Grid it out. You’ve got to go do it. Show up at conferences. Find people who are willing to take a look at your product. First version of our product had perhaps like two protections on it. Now we have over 150 different choices on AppDome, but at the time, we only had a very small set of security features to offer. But you show your product off and you’ve gathered the feedback and you’re going to miss several times before you get to that first customer.
Tom Tovar
People are going to tell you it’s not built right, or it’s awkward, or they don’t get it, or you’re not explaining it right, or you put too much jargon in how you’re describing what you’re doing or whatever. You try to overcomplicate it because you really want to show off your tech or whatever. You’re going to go through all that. My advice is just don’t ever tell yourself you’re right. Just constantly try to refactor, reimagine, redescribe, create new narratives daily if you have to. You’ll drive everybody around you nuts, because you’re trying to change as fast as you’re trying to change. But be like a musician, music songwriter who’s trying to capture that perfect lyric about what love means. Really push yourself to try to get the words out as simple as possible for your customers.
Tom Tovar
And then eventually someone will say, okay, I’ll give it a try and celebrate that moment. And when you get your first customer into a poc and then realize it starts all over when you get customers into pocs, because some of your pocs will fail, and then you’ve got to go through that and learn from that until you get the one that buys, and then you’re going to start that all over because not every customer is going to want to stay with you, whatever, until you get it right. It’s going to be this constant evolution of learning. And you just really, Brett, have to be super dedicated to your cause and super humble and have near perfect humility because you’re going to get knocked in the face, like, every freaking moment that you’re trying to build something.
Tom Tovar
The world isn’t going to understand you at first. And so there’s this kind of funny movie. I don’t know. You guys might know it’s called the Hudsucker proxy. You might want to look it up. But in that movie, there’s an entrepreneur, and he’s creating the hula hoop. And so he goes around holding up a picture of a circle on a piece of paper and telling people, pointing at the circle and saying, you know, for kids. And that’s his pitch. Like, for kids, it’s just a circle on a piece of paper. Everyone’s like, I don’t get it. I don’t know what it is, but it’s the hula hoop. And the whole point is, he makes a lot of money in the hula hoop. So that’s the way you’re going to feel for kids. Everyone’s going to be like, no, I don’t get it.
Tom Tovar
Until they get it. And then your company takes off, and then you get to be on podcasts like this. And people say, tom, take me back to when you first went through it. Brett, if you had interviewed me back then, man, I would have been all depressed. And, you know, we’re still trying to figure it out and whatever. But, yeah, fast forward to now, and we don’t have it all figured out. We still every day find things that when we look back on them or read them a second time, we’re like, wow, that’s dumb. Let’s change that I don’t think that’s ever going to end. And I think when you’re trying to do good in the world and you’re trying to create something that’s never happened, you always try to make it better.
Tom Tovar
And I think if we make our product better, then our customers will better and the safety and security of everybody will better. And that’s a noble cause. And I like that. I like getting behind that.
Brett
What about market category? So I introduced you as a mobile devset ops platform. Is that established or is that a category that you’re creating?
Tom Tovar
Yeah, definitely a category. A category that I would say we’re creating. Even like the big guys like Gartner and Forrester and others, they hear what we do and they don’t have a category. And there used to be this thing in venture capital land that would say, well, if you don’t have a category, then you’re in a bad spot. I disagree. I really disagree. I think you’ve got to be creating new categories. You got to be breaking up old categories, unless you’re creating a me too, and there’s nothing wrong with me too products, there’s some really good ones out there. Anytime a big industry is created, rush to create that, fill up the void, because all industries need competition, if there can be.
Tom Tovar
But if you’re first to market and you’ve got pole position on that market, work like crazy to keep it into defined categories that suit what you do, it’s going to be harder, but I think the rewards are bigger when you kind of look back on it. So being a devsecops platform or what we call cyber defense automation platform, those kinds of, that’s a brand new category. No one’s ever created anything like, you know, we’re just really proud to have pioneered this kind of new way of protecting the economy. And then, to be honest, Brett, it’s not that revolutionary. I mean, if you look at kind of the way dev teams work, DevOps is all about automating everything.
Tom Tovar
So whether it’s git or sauce labs or whatever, you’ve got tools to build, tools to test, tools to release, tools to monitor, and all these things are interconnected with one another. So our instinct was, well, why can’t you create the same platform for the cyber initiative inside that pipeline? The hard part was building it. Conceiving of it was not as hard building it. Incredibly difficult. So, yeah, I mean, always try to pioneer the category, if you can.
Brett
What types of tactics and strategies are you deploying to ensure that you maintain your status as category king. What I’ve seen happen to some companies is they end up creating a category, they push it out into market and then someone comes in and it swoops it away from them and they become the loudest voice in the room. So what are you doing to ensure that you maintain that leadership position within.
Tom Tovar
This category that you’re creating? Yeah, listen to our customers at this point. Just listen to our customers, listen to our prospects. Listen to the people that are using the product who want more out of it. Pay attention to how they use the product, where they get stuck using the product. My advice to every Founder is plug yourself into the entire support infrastructure, support workflow. If you don’t know every single support ticket that every single user ever raises in your product, you’re doing it wrong. If you’re the product creator, roll up your pants legs and get into the mud and pay attention to every point of friction that your users are facing in utilizing your product or getting the most out of it.
Tom Tovar
And I think you get to that point where you’re not struggling as much to land your next account because eventually you’ll hire salespeople and marketing people and they’ll do the kind of intake where you really kind of, in that next phase of evolution when you get to scale, is really trying to help your customers maximize the value they get out of your product for every dollar they invest. Start thinking, how do I return more back to my customers for every dollar they’re paying me? I might have had a 20 x return on investment going in, but each customer now should be getting 100 x return on their dollar because I’ve got more functionality or I’ve removed points of friction or I’ve added new capabilities.
Tom Tovar
It’s also a fun time because you can start just going to your customers and saying when you’re scaling up is to say, hey, that’s free. Go ahead and take that. Yeah, you’ve been so great to us this whole journey. Go ahead and do that. Yeah, use that. That’s fine. And so that’s how you stay ahead is really listening to your customers, creating partners or honoring partnerships that you’ve had. Certainly those that have been around from the first get go and really kind of use those strategies at that time to really kind of move up the chain of value for them. And then I think that’s how you stay ahead.
Brett
As I mentioned there in the intro, you’ve raised over 26 million so far. I’m sure there’s been a lot of lessons that you’ve learned along the way in raising that money. But if you had to choose one big takeaway, what would that be?
Tom Tovar
Yeah. Find investors who are true partners in your journey. We’re blessed here at AppDome by having an amazing investor syndicate. They believe in AppDome, they believe in what we’re doing. They’ve been with us through thick and know Covid and all of the things that came along with that. So really, if you are going to raise money from investors, spend the extra time to make sure that they understand the vision of where you’re going to take it and what good and bad might happen on the path to getting there. I just can’t say enough about that.
Tom Tovar
Everyone from our chairman, Avery, all the way to Benki, who initially kind of talked with me about starting this journey, tom over at rally Ventures, and know even back to some of the early investors out of Israel, in mean, we’ve just been really fortunate to have folks around the table who help us at every turn. So that’s the biggest thing, more important than valuation. The evaluation is going to be important if you’re a Founder, but at some level, the market’s going to kind of tell you what that is. Terms are going to be important. Ha ha. I used to be a lawyer doing that stuff. So, yeah, your terms are going to be important, but really assess the quality of the investor and the commitment that they have to you as a Founder and to the mission of the company.
Tom Tovar
That’s the number one thing. If you get of any hairs raised on the back of your neck, pay attention to them. There’s some great money out there, great investors. This market is filled with a bunch of amazing people that far outweigh the negative kind. And so your ods are good. Your ods are really good. If you focus on that, and then the second piece, and probably the great place to close off on is have a noble purpose in what you’re doing. Have something that your brother or sister, mother, grandmother, grandfather, whatever, can get behind. When you talk about your company and you talk about what you’re trying to do, make sure you can put it in terms that everybody gets. We’re on a mission to protect every mobile application in the world.
Tom Tovar
And the people that use those for their lives and work, that’s a pretty simple statement to get behind. Like, you’re going to protect me and keep me safe as a user. Hey, that’s great app. Don’t keep doing what you’re doing. And so one of my favorite things to do when I’m meeting an investor is ask them what applications do they have on their phone? And when they tell me what applications they have, I say, well, you’re already one of our near 1 billion mobile end users protected. And I get a smile on my face and they get a smile on their face. So have something that everyone could get behind. And I think if you do that, sky’s the limit for you. Find the people who have that in your heart, have that in every layer of your company.
Tom Tovar
Make sure your investors match up with that and go ride the wave. It’s out in front of you and you can do it.
Brett
Now, let’s just imagine if you were starting the company again today from scratch, totally clean slate. What would be the number one piece of advice you’d give yourself?
Tom Tovar
Oh, that’s funny. When you build a company and just like building a life, you’re going to have to make peace with the fact that you’re not perfect and you’re not going to get it all perfect. You’re going to make mistakes and so forth. And companies like life have to be rooted in a noble purpose. And I think I went through it the way I went through it, so there’s no other way to go through it I don’t think I could give myself. There are definitely things I would have done earlier and things I would have done later. But if I try to imagine a world where I could change any of that, then it wouldn’t be the experience that I had. And I guess the main thing would say is to take moments to be proud. That would be the main thing.
Tom Tovar
You work so hard and your head’s down all the time that you don’t necessarily pick your head up and say to yourself like, wow, we did that. And so make sure you take those moments and celebrate the little and big moments that happen. Milestones you achieve. We joke and say, like, at apdome, we used to count the number of customers, and then once we got to a certain number of customers, we’re like, yeah, but our customers have more than one app, so we should count the number of apps. So we started counting the number of apps and then that got to the tens of thousands of apps, and then we’re like, yeah, but those applications have all these users, and people are using our service to monitor threats and attacks in real time. And so we have user data. So let’s go counting users.
Tom Tovar
So now we’re counting users when eventually users won’t be the measure of the goodness that we’re giving. And so we’ll start to start measuring attacks and threats that we’re stopping out in the world and dollars saved and so forth and so on. So there’s no end to the journey of figuring out what good you can bring to the world if you really set your mind to it. So remember to take those moments and to celebrate. To celebrate that. And if you can find someone in your company every day to thank find somebody in your company every day to say great job and thank you and for that. And even if it’s something small, like just do it in the hustle and bustle of leading a company, sometimes we’re not the best at that. So put little reminders to do that.
Tom Tovar
And I think if you do these things, you’re going to do great at it. Just don’t be so hard on yourself and celebrate those moments every chance you get.
Brett
Final question for you, Tom. Let’s zoom out three to five years into the future. What’s that big picture vision that you’re building?
Tom Tovar
The world is going mobile. You have things like the m one m two chip that are now on Apple laptops and stuff, and those run mobile apps. I think you’re seeing mobile apps in cars now. You’re seeing mobile apps in VR headsets, you’re seeing mobile apps and television sets and so forth. So the platform that is mobile is going to continue to proliferate out into all of our existence. So I think we’ve got a lot of work to do. We’ve got a lot in front of us, we’ve got a lot of Runway to solve some big pressing problems out there.
Tom Tovar
I think we’re going to keep doing what we’re doing, try to stick to our knitting, try to continue to add new defenses, new protections, look out for new threats, continue to raise awareness within developer community about the need to protect applications more and better, and so forth. Raise the bar we’ve launched a new program where we are partnering with pen testing companies around the world to kind of improve the state of the art of mobile app defense around the world. So I’m really excited about what that has in store for us and to be back more near term. If any of your listeners out there are going to be at Black Hat this year, please join us for a vip night of comedy at the Mandalay Bay at the House of Blues.
Tom Tovar
We’ll be having Howie Mandel and Gina Yashir telling some really great jokes at a wonderful event on Wednesday night, August 9. So we really want to be part of this community and we’re doing our best to contribute. And so I think we’re just going to keep doing that, Brett. I think that’s really our mission.
Brett
Amazing Tom. I love the vision and really enjoyed this conversation. We are up on time, so we’re going to have to wrap here before we do. If founders listening in want to follow along with your journey as you build and execute on this vision, where should they go?
Tom Tovar
Yeah, well, they should go check out know, just also, you know, obviously have a LinkedIn profile you guys can find me on there. I’m the one with the dog and the mountaineering picture on my profile. But other than, I mean, stay tuned for what we do. And if any of you need help protecting your mobile application, just reach out to me at tom@appdome.com we’d love to hear from you.
Brett
Amazing, Tom, thanks so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it. Again, really enjoyed this conversation.
Tom Tovar
Thank you so much, Brett. I really appreciate it.
Brett
Keep in touch. This episode of Category Visionaries is brought to you by Front Lines Media, Silicon Valley’s leading podcast production studio. If you’re a B2B Founder looking for help launching and growing your own podcast, visit frontlines.io podcast. And for the latest episode, search for Category Visionaries on your podcast platform of choice. Thanks for listening and we’ll catch you on the next episode.
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