Listen Here

| |

Actionable
Takeaways

The structured data gap is your moat in operations software:

Turnstile's core thesis is that B2B revenue operations breaks because companies lack a structured representation of commercial terms. Unlike PLG businesses with good/better/best pricing that automates easily, sales-led companies negotiate custom terms that create one-off agreements—each requiring manual operationalization. Michael explains: "The real crux of the problem are these negotiated agreements...a sales rep comes in holding this piece of paper, like, look who I signed. And then you look at the terms and you're like, oh, we've never done that before." B2B founders building operations infrastructure should identify which unstructured data (contracts, agreements, configurations) is the root cause of downstream manual work, then build the structured repository that becomes your system of record.

Ban custom development to discover your real product gaps:

After design partner work, Turnstile established a non-negotiable rule: zero custom development for individual customers. Instead, they built a rapid response feature team that addresses product gaps by building features available to all customers. This forcing function revealed which flexibility was missing from their platform. The result: a system flexible enough to onboard customers in minutes versus the 3-6 month implementations competitors require. B2B founders should recognize that custom development often signals product inadequacy, not market fit. The willingness to lose deals over custom work forces you to build true platform capabilities rather than becoming a consulting business with a product attached.

Invert traditional category timing through product architecture:

Quote-to-cash traditionally comes up at later stages—early companies do everything manually until scale forces automation. Turnstile inverted this by building for the hardest use case first: companies negotiating non-standard terms with every customer. Michael notes their flexibility supports "very early stage companies...before you have standard pricing and packaging, while you're still figuring it out and testing your pricing." By designing for maximum complexity (negotiated deals with custom terms), they created a platform that trivially handles simpler cases. B2B founders in "enterprise-only" categories should ask: could we redesign this to serve the most complex use case, thereby making it accessible to everyone?

Prevent compounding operational debt by becoming the first system in:

Companies without a unified revenue system inevitably develop "truth drift"—discrepancies between contract terms and actual execution. One Turnstile customer discovered over $1 million in unbilled revenue during onboarding. Michael explains: "When you don't have a single system of record for your revenue data, what happens is you end up with drift between what your contracts say and how you actually carried out the relationship." Later-stage companies require painful audits to reconcile this drift. B2B infrastructure founders should articulate the compounding cost of starting without their system versus the clean foundation they provide from day one—the pain of remediation is often your strongest competitive wedge against manual processes.

Lead with pain recognition in familiar categories that early buyers don't know:

Early-stage founders don't recognize "quote-to-cash" as a category, but they intimately feel the pain: hours spent reviewing contracts to figure out billing amounts, managing one-off Stripe plans for every negotiated deal, or tracking subscription changes in spreadsheets. Michael found that "every single time we talk to somebody, they're feeling some degree of pain already"—the challenge is helping them understand solutions exist for problems they assumed everyone just handles manually. B2B founders in established-but-unfamiliar categories should lead customer conversations with specific workflow pain points rather than category positioning, then introduce the category as the framework for the solution they're already desperate for.

Conversation
Highlights

How Turnstile Made Quote-to-Cash Self-Serve by Banning Custom Development

Michael Babineau saw the irony immediately. After selling Second Measure to Bloomberg, he and co-founder Lillian Chou were running a data analytics company that specialized in transforming unstructured data into actionable insights. Yet they were managing their own revenue operations through spreadsheets and manual processes.

“We’re used to taking messy, unstructured data, converting it into analytics and actionable insights,” Michael explains in a recent episode of BUILDERS. “And here we are still actually operating our business on spreadsheets. That seemed incongruent with how we thought the world should work.”

That disconnect became the catalyst for Turnstile, an AI-native quote-to-cash platform designed to solve a problem that plagues sales-led B2B companies: how to operationalize negotiated deals with non-standard terms.

The Structured Data Problem at the Root of Revenue Chaos

The root cause of revenue operations chaos isn’t workflow design or team structure—it’s the absence of structured commercial data. While product-led businesses with standard pricing tiers automate easily, sales-led companies negotiate custom agreements that create unique operational nightmares.

“The real crux of the problem are these negotiated agreements,” Michael says. “A sales rep comes in holding this piece of paper, like, look who I signed. And then you look at the terms and you’re like, oh, we’ve never done that before. I guess we have to figure out how to operationalize this. You offer them something different from what we’ve given other people under pricing terms and under billing terms that are different from what we’ve done before.”

Each negotiated deal becomes a manual workflow to implement. Without a structured system capturing these terms, companies resort to spreadsheets, calendar reminders, and tribal knowledge that inevitably breaks at scale.

One Turnstile customer discovered over $1 million in unbilled revenue during onboarding. “They came to us and said, hey, there’s a discrepancy here. Like the numbers aren’t lining up with our internal numbers for revenue,” Michael recalls. “They did a deep dive and they realized that they had over a million dollars in unbilled invoices. Like not even unpaid, but like unbilled invoices.”

This revenue leakage is remarkably common. Michael notes: “You’d be amazed at how often companies have some form of revenue leakage where per the contract, their customer owes them a certain amount of money, but for whatever reason that was never billed or it was incorrectly billed and no one noticed it.”

The Custom Development Ban That Forced Platform Flexibility

After working with initial design partners, Michael and his co-founders made a decision that would fundamentally shape their product trajectory: they banned custom development for individual customers.

“We set a hard rule internally that we are not going to do custom development for our customers,” Michael explains. “We will move things around on roadmap. We have a rapid response feature team who will, if there is a product gap or something we can rapidly address the product gap, but we’re not going to do it in a one-to-one way. We’re going to do it in a way where we’re actually building out the feature to satisfy the needs of that customer, but then it is available to all customers.”

This constraint forced genuine configurability into the platform. Traditional quote-to-cash vendors build rigid systems, then compensate with heavy professional services—custom development that takes weeks or months per implementation. “That’s what most companies in our space do,” Michael says. “Their professional services is heavy. They do a lot of custom work for their customers and that custom work is necessary because their underlying platforms are not flexible enough to support the needs of those businesses out of the box.”

By refusing this path, Turnstile had to solve the flexibility problem at the product level. The result: “Instead of going through like a multi-week white glove type process, which is where we started, folks can onboard now in minutes and in an entirely self-serve fashion.”

Building for Negotiated Deals Unlocks Earlier Market Entry

Quote-to-cash has traditionally been a growth-stage problem. Early companies handle everything manually, then invest in automation after reaching scale. “Early stage companies all do it by hand and then eventually they get big and they’re like, oh, we have 50 sales reps, we really need CPQ, or we have hundreds of customers, we really need billing automation,” Michael explains.

Turnstile inverted this by designing for maximum complexity first. “We built Turnstile to be ultra flexible and to address the needs of sales-led businesses who are negotiating every deal,” Michael says. “That flexibility has allowed us to actually support the needs of very early stage companies.”

The platform now supports companies “before you have standard pricing and packaging, while you’re still figuring it out and testing your pricing and you’re negotiating with your early customers.” By solving for non-standard contracts—the hardest case—they created a system that handles everything else trivially.

This architectural decision opened an entirely new market segment. “You can literally go to our website and sign up, and it starts at 100 bucks a month,” Michael says. Compare this to traditional implementations: “A Quote to Cash platform is traditionally a big heavyweight thing with like a three to six month implementation that costs you 50 grand, 100 grand and then you have this rigid thing that, you know, like heaven help you if you change your pricing.”

Category Education Versus Pain Recognition

Marketing to early-stage founders revealed a positioning challenge. The quote-to-cash category is well-understood by CFOs at billion-dollar companies but unknown to pre-seed founders. “When you say quote-to-cash to a founder fresh out of YC, they’re parsing it, trying to figure out what the heck that means,” Michael admits.

Yet these same founders intimately understand the operational pain. “As soon as you start talking about the challenges, they understand it because they’re feeling it,” Michael says. “If it’s like a pre-seed or even like Series A business, oftentimes it’s the founder doing all this stuff by hand. And believe me, speaking as a founder, you do not, I do not want to be doing this stuff by hand.”

The solution: lead with specific pain points rather than category positioning. Founders recognize spending hours monthly reviewing contracts to determine billing amounts. They know the pain of managing one-off Stripe plans for every negotiated deal. They feel the chaos of tracking subscription changes across spreadsheets.

“Every single time we talk to somebody, they’re feeling some degree of pain already,” Michael notes. “Mostly it’s about helping them understand that this is not big heavyweight enterprise software. They don’t have to go through like a multi-month onboarding implementation.”

Preventing Truth Drift Through System of Record Positioning

When companies lack a unified system for revenue data, “truth drift” emerges—discrepancies between contract terms and actual execution. “When you don’t have a single system of record for your revenue data, what happens is you end up with drift between what your contracts say and how you actually carried out the relationship between the customer,” Michael explains.

These discrepancies accumulate through discretionary decisions. “There are a lot of discretionary pieces in there where you say like, oh, well, you know what? We decided they were a little grumpy about the service they received in such and such month. We’re going to adjust the invoice for that month.” These manual adjustments create immediate value but leave permanent data inconsistencies.

“It’s very easy to do that manually, but it leaves you with this discrepancy between your contract terms and what actually happened,” Michael says. Starting with Turnstile from day one prevents this entirely: “If you start with us from day one, you get that unified system of record for free. We preserve the sanctity of the data, of this truth data.”

For later-stage companies, remediation becomes a significant onboarding task. “When we onboard later stage companies, this is a big part of what we do—we help them audit what actually happened and get them into our system in a clean way.”

The Rippling Playbook: Start With Startups, Grow Into Enterprise

Turnstile’s GTM strategy explicitly follows the Stripe and Rippling model. “The goal is to really, we’re following in the footsteps of Stripe and of Rippling where you start with startups and then you move up market and grow into enterprise,” Michael says.

The company targets two core segments today. First: companies under $2 million in ARR where “typically it’s founders doing all the operational bits of the revenue life cycle.” This is their self-serve motion at $100/month.

Second: companies between $2-20 million in ARR, where “you have a lot of repeatability, like your business is starting to work and you’ve probably hired a head of finance, ahead of operations, somebody who’s taking on this stuff and part of their job is to systematize it.” These customers are “thinking about how do we get from 5 million ARR to 100 million ARR.”

Turnstile already serves customers in the tens of millions of ARR. Enterprise readiness—supporting billion-dollar businesses—is “a 2027 thing,” Michael notes, because “a lot of their internal needs is just like enterprise ready type check-the-box needs that for us we’ve deprioritized in the face of things that deliver value to our customers today.”

Building for Human Operators and AI Agents Simultaneously

Michael describes Turnstile as “an AI-native quote-to-cash” platform with a specific architectural philosophy. “Turnstile is a platform that helps companies operate their revenue processes,” he explains. “Companies are at different stages in terms of AI adoption. Some people want to operate their revenue process with people and some want to operate them with agents.”

The platform provides both paths simultaneously. “We have strong UI where it makes it easy for a human operator to go through and to manage those elements of their business. But additionally we have the APIs and the hooks for agents to operate these things on behalf of the customer.”

They’re also building native agents into the platform. “We’re starting to build out agents to automate different parts of the stack as well. A good example here is we’re getting ready to release agentic dunning,” Michael says. Dunning—chasing overdue payments—becomes fully automated: “Finance people will no longer have to worry about chasing people down for these payments. We’re going to do it for them with the oversight of a human supervisor.”

This positions Turnstile at the intersection of structured data infrastructure and AI automation—solving the foundational problem while building toward an increasingly automated future.

The lesson for B2B founders building operations infrastructure: the structured data problem is your moat, custom development is your enemy, and solving for maximum complexity unlocks earlier market entry than incumbents can match.

Recommended Founder
Interviews

Don Muir

CEO of Arc

Don Muir, CEO of Arc: Over $180 Million Raised to Empower Startups with a Better Cash Management Experience

Kalpesh Kapadia

CEO and Founder of Deserve

Kalpesh Kapadia, CEO and Founder of Deserve: $50 Million Raised to Build the Future of Credit Cards

Jeremy Almond

CEO & Founder of Paystand

Jeremy Almond, CEO & Founder of Paystand: $100M Raised to Power the Future of B2B Payments

Renaud Laplanche

Co-Founder and CEO of Upgrade

How Upgrade built 6 billion-dollar products by designing for multi-product from day one | Renaud Laplanche ($6B Valuation)

Arik Shtilman

CEO of Rapyd

Arik Shtilman: the Story of Rapyd ($15 Billion Valuation)

Felix Rodriguez

CEO & Founder of Finally

Felix Rodriguez, CEO & Founder of Finally: $110 Million Raised to Power the Future of Finance Automation

Jessica Zhang

CEO & Co-Founder of Pier

Jessica Zhang, CEO & Co-Founder of Pier: $2.5M Raised to Build the Future of Credit Infrastructure

Henrique Dubugras

Co-Founder and Co-CEO of Brex

Henrique Dubugras: the Story of Brex ($12 Billion+ Valuation)

Nicholas Lembo

VP of Marketing of Coast

Navigating GEO: Earned Media & SEO Tactics That Actually Work

Wade Arnold

CEO and Founder of Moov

Wade Arnold, CEO and Founder of Moov: $77.5 Million Raised to Build the Future of Embedded Payments

Brian King

CEO of LODAS Markets

Brian King, CEO of LODAS Markets: $8.5 Million Raised to Power the Future of Alternative Investments

Steven Greene

CEO of Standard Practice

Steven Greene, CEO & Co-Founder of Standard Practice (Previously Nibble Health): $8 Million Raised to Bring the Fintech Revolution to the World Healthcare Payments

Laura Kornhauser

Co-Founder and CEO of Stratyfy

Laura Kornhauser, Co-Founder and CEO at Stratyfy: $10 Million Raised to Power the Future of Financial Inclusion

Rodney Reisdorf

Co-Founder & CEO of Co-Founder & CEO

Rodney Reisdorf, CEO of Verivend: $3 Million Raised Transform Private Capital Transactions

Rafael Loureiro

CEO of Wealth

Rafael Loureiro, CEO of Wealth: $16 Million Raised to Build the Future of Estate Planning

Julio Martínez

Co-Founder and CEO of Abacum

Julio Martínez, Co-Founder and CEO at Abacum: $40 Million Raised to Build the Future of FP&A

Nik Talreja

CEO & Co-Founder of Sydecar

Nik Talreja, CEO & Co-Founder of Sydecar: Over $16 Million Raised to Make Venture Deal Execution a Frictionless Process

John Lunn

CEO and Founder of Gr4vy

John Lunn, CEO and Founder of Gr4vy: $27 Million Raised to Build the Future of Payments Infrastructure

Fady Hawatmeh

Founder and CEO of Clockwork

Fady Hawatmeh, Founder and CEO of Clockwork: Nearly $3 Million Raised to Make Financial Modeling and Cash Flow Forecasting Easy

Debbie Soon

Head of Marketing of Privy

Storytelling for Technical Products w/ Debbie Soon

Colin Luce

CEO & Co-Founder of Basis Theory

Colin Luce, CEO & Co-Founder of Basis Theory: $20 Million Raised to Build the Future of Payments Tokenization

Magali Chapuis

Marketing Manager of Embat

Magali Chapuis, Marketing Manager of Embat: Strategic Insights for Scaling Fintech Marketing Across Borders

Fiona Sherwood

CMO of Dasseti

The Death of Gated Content: Why This CMO Gives Everything Away

Jack McDonald

CEO of PolySign

Jack McDonald, CEO of PolySign: $50 Million Raised to Power the Future of Digital Assets

Klas Bäck

CEO & Co-Founder of Pagos

Klas Bäck, CEO & Co-Founder of Pagos: $44 Million Raised to Power the Future of Payments Operations

Caleb Avery

Founder & CEO of Tilled

Caleb Avery, Founder & CEO of Tilled: $40 Million Raised to Build (and Dominate) the PayFac as a Service Category

Eric Velasquez Frenkiel

Founder and CEO of Pomelo

Eric Velasquez Frenkiel, CEO of Pomelo: $70 Million Raised to Build the Future of Remittance

Ron Benegbi

CEO & Founder of Uplinq

Ron Benegbi, CEO & Founder at Uplinq: Over $5 Million Raised to Transform SMB Lender’s Existing Credit Evaluation Process

Matt Bivons

CEO & Founder of Canopy

Matt Bivons, CEO & Founder of Canopy: $30M Raised to Build a Modern Servicing Platform for Scaling FinTechs

Scott Dorey

Co-Founder of OpenPath

Scott Dorey, Co-Founder of OpenPath: $25 Million Raised to Build the Future of Payments

Omri Mor

CEO & Co-Founder of Routable

Omri Mor, CEO & Co-Founder of Routable: $100 Million Raised to Transform AP Automation for Fast-Growing Companies

Daumantas Dvilinskas

CEO & Co-Founder of TransferGo

Daumantas Dvilinskas, CEO & Co-Founder of TransferGo: $125 Million Raised to Build the Future of Cross-Border Payments

Tal Shahar

CEO & Co-Founder of Atlas Invest

Tal Shahar, CEO & Co-Founder of Atlas Invest: $13 Million Raised to Transform Real Estate Financing

Patricia Montesi

CEO & Co-Founder of Qolo

Patricia Montesi, CEO & Co-Founder of Qolo: $30 Million Raised to Build the Future of Omnichannel Payments Infrastructure

Fay Scott

VP of Marketing of April

Embedded Tax: How April is Creating a New Category

Swapnil Shinde

CEO and Co-Founder of Zeni

Swapnil Shinde, CEO and Co-Founder of Zeni: $47+ Million Raised to Build the Finance Operations Category

Helen Chong

Head of Growth of Puzzle

Helen Chong, Head of Growth at Puzzle: Collaborating with Founders – Insights for Effective Marketing Alignment

Shamir Karkal

Co-founder and CSO of Sila

Shamir Karkal, CEO of Sila: $20+ Million Raised to Build the Money API For Fintech

Stephany Kirkpatrick

CEO and Founder of Orum

Stephany Kirkpatrick, CEO and Founder of Orum: Over $85 Million Raised to Build an API integration for Instant Payouts

Thibaut Sahagian

CEO of Multis

Thibaut Sahagian, CEO of Multis: $9 Million Raised to Build a New Category of Software Designed to Meet the Needs of Web3 Organizations

Reed Switzer

CEO of Hopscotch

Reed Switzer, CEO of Hopscotch: $10M to Build the Future of B2B Payments For SMBs

Bob Suh

CEO of OnCorps

Bob Suh, CEO of OnCorps: $18M Raised to Help Large Financial Institutions Solve Operational Problems with AI

Chandini Jain

CEO & Co-Founder of Auquan

Chandini Jain, CEO & Co-Founder of Auquan: $8 Million Raised to Transform Financial Intelligence Through AI

Ben Goldin

CEO and Founder of Plumery

Ben Goldin, CEO and Founder of Plumery: $4.5 Million Raised to Power the Future of Digital Engagement for Banks

Daniel Grunstein

CEO and Co-Founder of Crowded

Daniel Grunstein, CEO and Co-Founder of Crowded: $6.4 Million Raised to Transform Nonprofit Financial Management

Ankit Ratan

Co-Founder and CEO of Signzy

Ankit Ratan, Co-Founder and CEO of Signzy: Over $38 Million Raised to Build the Future of Digital Onboarding Infrastructure

Olga Chin

CEO and Founder of InterPrice Technologies

Olga Chin, CEO and Founder of InterPrice Technologies: Over $10 Million Raised to Build the Future of Capital Markets Treasury Management

Daniele Grassi

CEO of Axyon AI

Daniele Grassi, CEO of Axyon AI: $5.5 Million Raised to Power the Future of Financial Markets with AI

Sandro Zweig

CEO and Co-Founder of tiun.

How tiun validated product-market fit with 6-12 months of pilot data before scaling | Sandro Zweig

Nathan Beckord

CEO of Foundersuite

Nathan Beckord, CEO of Foundersuite: $13 Million Raised to Build the Go-To Platform for Startup Fundraising

Arik Shtilman

CEO of Rapyd

Arik Shtilman, Rapyd: $15 Billion Valuation (Unicorn Builders)

Ben Borodach

Co-Founder and CEO of April

Ben Borodach, Co-Founder and CEO of April: $40 Million Raised to Embed Intelligent Tax Experiences

Carmen Li

CEO of Silicon Data

Carmen Li, CEO of Silicon Data: $5M+ Building the World’s First GPU Compute Risk Management Platform

Patrick Mollard

CEO & Co-Founder of Fipto

Patrick Mollard, CEO & Co-Founder of Fipto: $16 Million Raised to Build the Future of Blockchain Payments

Halle Kaplan-Allen

Head of Marketing of Sydecar

Why LinkedIn Thought Leader Ads Beat Traditional B2B Creative

Iris Pfeifer

VP of Growth of Wisetack

Iris Pfeifer, VP of Growth at Wisetack: Mastering B2B Marketing Through Sales Alignment and Product Strategy

Steve Pomfret

Steve Pomfret, CEO & Founder of Cygnetise: $8 Million Raised to Build the Future of Signatory Management

Sohaib Zahid

CEO and Co-Founder of Railz

Sohaib Zahid, CEO and Co-Founder of Railz: $15 Million Raised to Build to Accounting Data as a Service Category

Tate Hackert

Co-founder & Chief Strategy Officer of ZayZoon

How ZayZoon built 300+ payroll partnerships to reach 15,000 businesses without direct sales | Tate Hackert

Jonas Overgaard

CEO of Anyday.io

Jonas Overgaard, CEO of Anyday.io: $4M Raised to Transform the Buy Now Pay Later Market

Steffen Vollert

Co-Founder of Volt

Steffen Vollert, Co-founder of Volt: $87 Million Raised to Build the World’s Leading Global Real-Time Payment Network

Florian Wimmer

Co-Founder & CEO of Blockpit

Florian Wimmer, Co-Founder & CEO of Blockpit: $15 Million Raised to Power the Future of Crypto Tax Management

Yasmin Graeml

Marketing & Communication Leader of Flourish Fi

Yasmin, Marketing & Communication Leader at Flourish Fi: Driving Financial Engagement with Innovative Tech

Bryan McCarty

Director of Product and Product Marketing of Orum

Donuts & Product Launches: Orum’s Unconventional Event Strategy

Ahmad Ibrahim

CEO of NeoTax

Ibrahim, CEO of NeoTax: $13 Million Raised to Build the Future of Tax Automation